FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[McLaren Fan]

I was talking a bit about KERS with my uncle over the weekend, and he said part of the reason it never really took off because its use was too restricted. He's got a point. It can only be used for six seconds, and as it's not compulsory, there's no incentive to use it. Another thing, for me, is that it's pretty much Formula One's one and only answer to the need for green technologies. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things, such as fuel efficiency and different means of powering the cars (i.e., electric or (better) hydrogen power).

[darwin dali]

I was talking a bit about KERS with my uncle over the weekend, and he said part of the reason it never really took off because its use was too restricted. He's got a point. It can only be used for six seconds, and as it's not compulsory, there's no incentive to use it. Another thing, for me, is that it's pretty much Formula One's one and only answer to the need for green technologies. It needs to be used in conjunction with other things, such as fuel efficiency and different means of powering the cars (i.e., electric or (better) hydrogen power).

I'm sure BMW would love to see a conversion to hydrogen technology as they already have passenger cars running on it.

[autogyro]

Madbrad I think you are contradicting yourself.
gaining extra energy is exactly the same as saving fuel.
The green issue is only important in regard to how the world public perceive FI.
The Kers issue is one of keeping F1 at the peak of vehicle development.
There is an electric vehicle revolution underway and it is time the motor sport fans recognized this and started getting away from obsolete internal combustion engines and pre 19th century dog engagement layshaft gearboxes.
Kers systems harvest energy that would otherwise be wasted as heat from braking and engine over run.
This energy is stored and then re used when needed.
Fota have only agreed not to continue development because the big manufacturer teams are making money from using the technology in their road cars and they do not want others developing superior systems.

[autogyro]

Hydrogen power is a red herring from the oil companies. They have suggested the use of hydrogen as developed by NASA where there is a convenient and huge supply of liquid hydrogen in space vehicles for power needs.
Hydrogen is almost useless for any sensible distribution network or safe public vehicle fuel tank. It has to be frozen and highly pressurized.
The fuel you should be supporting is ethanol. Easily produced from almost any organic waste, in balance with the environment and far better than petrol for an internal combustion engine. It is also usable in fuel cells to produce electricity directly just like hydrogen.
I wonder why the oil companies hate it?

[darwin dali]

Hydrogen power is a red herring from the oil companies. They have suggested the use of hydrogen as developed by NASA where there is a convenient and huge supply of liquid hydrogen in space vehicles for power needs.
Hydrogen is almost useless for any sensible distribution network or safe public vehicle fuel tank. It has to be frozen and highly pressurized.
The fuel you should be supporting is ethanol. Easily produced from almost any organic waste, in balance with the environment and far better than petrol for an internal combustion engine. It is also usable in fuel cells to produce electricity directly just like hydrogen.
I wonder why the oil companies hate it?

Ethanol is a dead end as long as people grow, e.g., corn to make it and thereby shorten supply for consumption and jack up the price as has happened in the past couple years. The way it is made in most ethanol plants is also not very ecological (uses too much energy). Ethanol from anaerobic alcohol fermentation using bacteria would be the way to go, but to do that large scale will be a challenge.

[autogyro]

Sorry darwin but you will have to ask why there are companies supplying Ethanol refining set ups for home and business use that use 'waste' organic matter!!!!
The argument about growing fuel crops is also an oil company red herring, there are plenty of organic sources for Ethanol that would not disrupt food production, it just needs the right political drive, hopefully without the yank stumbling blocks that always seem to occur.

[autogyro]

Properly designed Ethanol plants would need no external energy source, they would also produce other products.
Vodka, vinegar and all manner of alcohol. Even the waste products are a fertilizer.
Oil company fossil fuel mongers arguments do not wash, not even slightly.

[madbrad]

Look what happened with KERS. Only the 2 of the richest teams had it in the end, and to some degree it was an advantage for them. This is in opposition to the decade and a half old principle of outlawing expensive technologies that poor teams cannot afford and are therefore left at the back without them. In an effort to level the playing field and reduce money's ability to give you an advantage, they outlawed Turbos, active suspension, traction control, ABS, witch's brews, etc long ago. Time to be rid of KERS too.

[Jabberwocky]

I just believed it took a bit of strain off the engine so it could accelerate (increase rotational speed) quicker.

[bud]

A flywheel KERS system developed by Williams Hybrid Power saw Joerg Bergmeister and Wolf Henzler finish third at the legendary Nurburgring Nordschleife circuit at the weekend.

Williams Hybrid Power (WHP) was quick to offer its congratulations to Porsche AG following a successful race for the 911 GT3 R Hybrid which uses WHP's magnetically-loaded composite flywheel technology.

Although the car completed a full race distance in the opening round of the championship, Saturday's result marks the first occasion when the system has been operated at its full performance potential.

Having completed 28 laps of the 20.8km track in the four-hour endurance race, the hybrid programme had reached a major milestone in its development programme, following a week of intensive testing on the demanding Nordschleife circuit.

"The hybrid system clearly helped us to save fuel," said Bergmeister. "Moreover, it's a great feeling to have those extra 120kW from the electric motors when you accelerate out of the corners."

"We are delighted with the progress Porsche AG have made with our MLC flywheel technology in the GT3 R Hybrid," said Ian Foley, Williams Hybrid Power's Managing Director, "particularly over the past few weeks. The system has now operated at its full output over a considerable distance during testing last week and racing today. I feel we are now a definite step closer to the goal of showing how flywheel technology can benefit both performance and fuel economy in the forthcoming Nürburgring 24 hour race on 15th and 16th of May."

Following recent talks, it is believed that KERS could return to F1 in 2011, Williams being one of the few teams developing a flywheel system.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

The very idea of F1 promoting green technology is as silly as Paris Hilton championing chastity. The only green thing about it is the paint on the Lotus cars. They burn 75 litres of leaded petrol per 100K, they've no antipollution or noise damping, their tyres are knackered in 100 miles, each chassis has a larger carbon footprint than the whole of Sub-Saharan Africa and there's less exotic materials in the crown jewels than a single F1 car. Adding CURSE means using even more exotic and toxic(!) materials and a still greater carbon footprint so touting it as anything remotely "green" is pure piffle.

[QKS]

I believe KERS is just a very nice gimmick. It should be used in a different way. Not only 6 seconds per lap, but say, 300 seconds for the whole race; or as much as you like; or if you a want a green version: when KERS is used, no extra power, but less fuel consumption...

Mixing F1 and wanting it to make it "green" is . It's too much politics. Lots of people say politics and sport shouldn't be mixed. But it sadly happens all the time. Boycott of Olympic games, "Respect" on soccer jerseys (FIFA). And of course green F1... among others
And to say KERS is a technology to be used in road cars... . Read this topic: http://www.forumula1.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8278
Let the sport be as it wishes to be without using words/interests of politicians...

What should be improved is what is really is going on on the globe. Stuff the masses uses... like cars (mentioned earlier in this topic). Forget about internal combustion engines, about hydrogen, ethanol, or even actual battery powered cars.
I believe the cleanest way is not to use cars... . Well, this is almost impossible to achieve, but you could ban cars from city centers. Lots of cities are improving their bike friendliness and public transportation. I think it is great (I don't have a car... too expensive (not that I couldn't afford one but still), I ride on my bike through the city!)
And a real alternative to the actual cars/engines, is something like an induction motor. The best way to make it work is to install "cables" under the tarmac to produce a magnetic field. This would mean, your car gets the energy from a power plant located somewhere where it don't "bother".... But of course, to change all the roads means to invest a lot of money... so maybe in a couple of hundred years...?

[bud]

The very idea of F1 promoting green technology is as silly as Paris Hilton championing chastity. The only green thing about it is the paint on the Lotus cars. They burn 75 litres of leaded petrol per 100K, they've no antipollution or noise damping, their tyres are knackered in 100 miles, each chassis has a larger carbon footprint than the whole of Sub-Saharan Africa and there's less exotic materials in the crown jewels than a single F1 car. Adding CURSE means using even more exotic and toxic(!) materials and a still greater carbon footprint so touting it as anything remotely "green" is pure piffle.

F1 use unleaded petrol with 15% Bio fuel mix.

[scotty]

Just to go off on the tangent of fuel consumption some more - apparently, F1 engines are extremely capable and can conceivably run at better fuel consumption than many road cars, it's just all the aero parts and associated drag along with the high revs that cause the high rate. I was quite surprised to hear that...

[darwin dali]

Just to go off on the tangent of fuel consumption some more - apparently, F1 engines are extremely capable and can conceivably run at better fuel consumption than many road cars, it's just all the aero parts and associated drag along with the high revs that cause the high rate. I was quite surprised to hear that...

And where did you hear that? Any data to support such a claim? Just curious...