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[LewEngBridewell]

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Which livery of Minardi's do we think was the best? They had a fair few.

[Joey Zyla]

I can't really say, as I only started following F1 a few years ago, but I would've enjoyed Tyrrell to stay.

[LewEngBridewell]

I can't really say, as I only started following F1 a few years ago, but I would've enjoyed Tyrrell to stay.

Rather like Lotus, they were once successful but faded into obscurity. I hope Williams aren't going the same way.

[andrew]

Rather like Lotus, they were once successful but faded into obscurity. I hope Williams aren't going the same way.

I think they are though. Like Lotus, Williams were once the team to beat and their cars could run rings round everyone else, now they are nowhere.

[LewEngBridewell]

Rather like Lotus, they were once successful but faded into obscurity. I hope Williams aren't going the same way.

I think they are though. Like Lotus, Williams were once the team to beat and their cars could run rings round everyone else, now they are nowhere.

Do you think they'll stay there like that though? Maybe if costs were cut.......... (he says with hopes and prayers)......

[andrew]

Rather like Lotus, they were once successful but faded into obscurity. I hope Williams aren't going the same way.

I think they are though. Like Lotus, Williams were once the team to beat and their cars could run rings round everyone else, now they are nowhere.

Do you think they'll stay there like that though? Maybe if costs were cut.......... (he says with hopes and prayers)......

Costs won't be cut, aside from the unenforcable RRA that they have now. Given the amount of people and resources that especially Ferrari and McLaren have on their F1 teams, I can't see how costs can be lowered further as FOTA will not allow it. The FIA and FOTA seem to have a pretty good relationship under MrT whereas under MrM they were both pulling in the opposite direction. I think part of MrM's mad obsession with making F1 a cut price series was to annoy Ferrari and McLaren - Ron Dennis had been a thorn in his side for years (no idea why) and it was rumoured that Luca di Montezemolo was involved in MrM's exposure as liking alternative forms of evening entertainment, thus the vendetta, or at least that's the legend of Mosley.

Attempted cost cutting led to Virgin, HRT and Lotus entering F1. IMHO 2 of these teams should not be in F1 though Lotus are making decent progress and are coming along nicely.

A big boost next year to Williams will be Renault engines. Ok I doubt they will be up with Red Bull (assuming that Red Bull are still leading) but they could be a threat to Genii/Lotus/Renault or whatever the hell they'll be called next year.

[LewEngBridewell]

I do think that all 3 of the new teams deserve their place on the grid. It's so hard for them, starting up from scratch and then to make progress. Lotus are the best of the 3, but Virgin and HRT aren't as far behind them as folk like to make out.

[zurich_allan]

Rather like Lotus, they were once successful but faded into obscurity. I hope Williams aren't going the same way.

I think they are though. Like Lotus, Williams were once the team to beat and their cars could run rings round everyone else, now they are nowhere.

No they're not at all like Lotus. The only similarity is in a racing sense as highlighted. In a business sense they're not remotely in trouble, in fact they are highly profitable - £1.7M half year profits this year - and that's after investing over a million pounds into their new technology centre and other renewable energy ventures. They've got much better business infrastructure than Lotus ever had. Lotus were in financial danger for literally about a decade before they finally went bust in the mid-90's, but Williams have always adapted their budgets and business plans depending on where they are at any given time. Although in a racing sense they're doing very badly at the moment, in a business sense they're a lot more stable than many other teams. I wouldn't be a shareholder if they weren't...

[andrew]

No they're not at all like Lotus. The only similarity is in a racing sense as highlighted.

Well they are. Williams were once the best team in F1, Lotus were once the best team in F1. Williams are having a slow decline to midfield obscurity, Lotus had a slow decline to mid-field obscurity. Lotus went bust, Williams are hanging on.

[zurich_allan]

No they're not at all like Lotus. The only similarity is in a racing sense as highlighted.

Well they are. Williams were once the best team in F1, Lotus were once the best team in F1. Williams are having a slow decline to midfield obscurity, Lotus had a slow decline to mid-field obscurity. Lotus went bust, Williams are hanging on.

Again, no they're not. At the most superficial of levels i.e. their current performance yes, but that's literally where the comparison ends. Categorically - Williams are not 'hanging on'. They're a company that are turning over multiple millions of pounds per year, and making a profit of multiple millions of pounds per year. They have diversified into other areas of both technology and energy research and development to ensure that F1 is not their only income stream meaning that they can absorb poor championship years without the company being in danger. They will not be vanishing a la Lotus at all, there is no danger whatsoever.

Lotus on the other hand were for their last decade of operations unable to even provide equal resources to both of their drivers at the same time as far back as 1985 and were hemorrhaging money and seriously operating at a loss by about 1989, with no revenue beyond F1 and sponsorship coming in at all. If they couldn't become serious contenders again they were always going to go bust in a short space of time, Williams won't.

Williams can very easily have a few bad years and still be sustainable in F1, they obviously don't want to be - they want to be competitive, but the company simply isn't in any trouble whatsoever, their situation is utterly different.

[andrew]

Again, they are! You are looking far too deep into this. I am talking about their fall from being at the top of F1 to being just another mid-field team.

Their stockmarket activities are irrelevant in the point I am making. I'm talking about their on-track performance. OK Williams are not at rock-bottom yet but they're getting there unless something spectacular happens with the Renault engines.

[zurich_allan]

Again, they are! You are looking far too deep into this. I am talking about their fall from being at the top of F1 to being just another mid-field team.

Their stockmarket activities are irrelevant in the point I am making. I'm talking about their on-track performance. OK Williams are not at rock-bottom yet but they're getting there unless something spectacular happens with the Renault engines.

No, you've changed what you were saying, or you've misunderstood what was being said in your first reply. The person who originally posted was saying that Tyrell were a great team that faded into obscurity i.e. out of existence, and they hoped Williams wouldn't do the same. You replied saying that you thought they were in the same boat. What wasn't being discussed was falling back into the midfield, unless you were changing the purpose of the thread, or unless you incorrectly read the context that poster was talking about. The whole thread is about teams that are gone. I replied and was saying that their situation and that of teams such as Lotus and Tyrell (i.e. in terms of potentially going bust - what the original poster of the comment was talking about) is completely different. Which it is. They're in no danger of becoming a team you have to 'miss', because they'll not be vanishing any time soon! I was answering the issue that is relevant to the thread, rather than straying marginally off topic.

I certainly don't think they'll be winning a championship again whilst leading F1 teams are able to spend as much as they currently are, so will likely remain in the midfield for the time being. Of course that's reality. A shame, but reality.

[andrew]

Actually I didn't reply to anything about Tyrrell. It was LewEngBridewell that first mentioned Lotus and I referred to his mention of Lotus.

[FRAFPDD]

Ladies, Handbags please!

I only started watching in 2007, but from what ive seen and heard and watched and listened to id like to see a proper lotus back in F1, tyrell and benetton, especially bennetton.

[LewEngBridewell]

Just thought I'd post this rather sad video, but it's memories nonetheless.

This is the final ever qualifying for Jordan with Narain Karthikeyen outqualifying team-mate Tiago Montiero, who only manages to split the Minardi cars (also their swansong too).

Not only is it a window to the past regarding final memories of Jordan and Minardi, but also one-lap qualifying, Juan Pablo Montoya's presence at the top of the time-sheets, and also James Allen's commentary during the ITV era of F1 coverage for the UK.

[youtube]fLtwmNdHiLk&NR=1[/youtube]