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[bud]

Vettel was ahead on the straight, problem was he was in the dirt and needed to get across in order to brake. Webber knew this so gave him enough room (to exist next to him) and probably expected Vettel to back off because he knew he had the line. Buuut Vettel decided to raise his elbows and force Webber off his line.

Vettel 100% in the wrong.

[Big Azza]

I can't handle this!

I want everyone to stop because my two equally favourite drivers of my favourite team are being analysed too much!

Can't we just smooth it over? Sit on the fence per say?

I blamed Vettel at first on the chat but I think I can understand both point's of view. What I absolutely hate is how everyone is attacking the integrity of this team. Someone suggested earlier that because Helmut is German he is biased. There's speculation, and people on this forum start using this to attack drivers, and teams.

At least Webber is agreeing to disagree. He's said that he understands that both drivers might take this down to the grave. You have Webber's Point of view, and you have Vettel's point of view. Just because Vettel has a bolder attitude and is younger doesn't mean his opinion is any less than that of Webbers.

Lewis Hamilton said that the driver's main priority is to race for the WCC. The driver's need to do the job first for the team before doing it for themselves.

I completely agree with the fact that Vettel overtaking Webber was better for the WCC. Webber was not guarunteed to win. And Webber does appear to have forced his team mate of towards the grass, away from the racing line. If Vettel had to break and drop back, Hamilton would overtake him at the next corner.

So one could argue that Webber did not put the team first, as he forced his team mate into a bad position. As Vettel also has an obvious element of blame, it is a racing incident.

If both drivers hold a grudge for the rest of this season then it's game over for Red Bull. If both drivers will not work together for the WCC but rather keep this incident in their forefront and are sworn enemies from now on, then they will not be putting the WCC first and in my opinion BOTH do not deserve to drive for Red Bull.

I'm sure Ferrari want a team player, so they will pay attention to this, and all interest in Webber might surely be dropped.

[bud]

I
So one could argue that Webber did not put the team first, as he forced his team mate into a bad position. As Vettel also has an obvious element of blame, it is a racing incident.

the only one doing any forcing was Vettel! he didnt want to yield when he knew he would not have made the corner braking on the dirty side of the track which is why he tried to force Webber over!

[zurich_allan]

I cannot understand anybody defending Vettel on this one. A lot of people have commented that Vettel was slightly ahead on the inside line... the problem I have with this is that the inside line is not always (and indeed not in this case!) the racing line!

The facts of the matter are very very simple, which is why I cannot understand any point of view that defends Vettel - and believe, me I'm not biased, look at my signature to see that!

1. Team orders are not allowed (of course I'm not saying they're not used, that would be highly naive) and so nobody can legitimately argue that.
2. Webber was square on the racing line and has the choice whether to move from it or not. If somebody hits him while he is on that line then it is their fault, not his.
3. Webber never deiated from the line, Vettel moved into him, 3/4 of a car length ahead or not, it was him that hit Webber, not the other way around. There is no other way to look at it.

Very simple, very straightforward. I cannot believe the bull that Red Bull have been spouting about 'for the good of the team' etc. What would have been for the good of the team was if Vettel hadn't initiated a dangerous punt up the inside that took himself out and possibly cost Webber a win.

A lot of people are saying that Hamilton and Button were applying a lot of pressure and could have passed Vettel and possibly Webber and so Vettel had to get past, but personally with the speed Red Bull were able to get through turn 8, and having seen Hamilton fail time and again at turn 12 because he was too far behind due to this, I still don't think the McLaren cars would have got past.

100% Vettel's fault, and Red Bull have vastly dropped in my estimations having been one of my favourite teams for the past five years.

[archiebald]

Vettel was within his rights to try the pass, but somehow he jerked right, which I'm sure was unintentional or a misjudgement of space. In that sense it's Vettel's fault, but really it was a racing incident.

It wasn't unintentional, I'm positive it was a move to force Webber right, but he misjudged and moved too far, too fast. So Vettel's fault. It's not like it was a choice of that or the grass, despite what other biased RB employees say.

I didn't phrase it right. I didn't mean the actual right turn was unintentional. The bumps may have played a part in it becoming a sudden jerk though. It must be tough to maintain 100% control at those speeds with no margin available.


They are under orders to leave each other room but that does not mean Webber must bow and say "after you sir".

I would tend to agree with you but Vettel has got a history of this type of behavior.

Australia 2009 vs Kubica
China 2010 vs Hamilton in the pits (don't give a hoot who was out of position but Vettel pushed right deliberately)
Turkey 2010 vs Hamilton at the same corner several laps earlier, fortunately Lewis was on the ball and bailed out.

There might be others.

I'm not a fan of either of the Red Bull drivers so no axe to grind here. Even giving Vettel benefit of the doubt he was 90% in the wrong there.

[Jabberwocky]

I think it is a racing incident.

Mark knew that Seb was going to move to the right, However Seb should of know Mark was not going to move.

[Datsun]

Vettel is at fault - unintentional rookie mistake.

Weren't Webber's managers in the final stages of talks with Red Bull? I wander if this will change anything.

[pamelaf]

A dismal display of sportmanship by Vettell. Mark Webber was robbed

[headless]

I am one of the 5 who said not clear cut.
I am with Eddie Jordan

[What's Burning?]

I am one of the 5 who said not clear cut.
I am with Eddie Jordan

When insurance companies settle accident claims they either give you all of the fault, as in the case of you running a stop sign or they give you a percentage of at fault. I agree that if you take everything into consideration Webber bears some fault, (I say this only because we have no idea what the internal team dynamics are) it would still be an 80/20 or 70/30 case against Vettle.

[headless]

Thing is, they are team mates, didn't want that, surely Webber should have used some sense and gave more room??

[madbrad]

surely Webber should have used some sense and gave more room??

Surely Vettel should have used some sense and not try to place his car where there was already a car?

[texasmr2]

surely Webber should have used some sense and gave more room??

Surely Vettel should have used some sense and not try to place his car where there was already a car?

I cannot understand how people think the leader should move over as it is up to the driver trying to make the pass to make it a clean pass. Its F1 for christ sake not bumper cars .

[f1ea]

surely Webber should have used some sense and gave more room??

Surely Vettel should have used some sense and not try to place his car where there was already a car?

Vettel didnt do a super rowdy move. It was aggressive in the sense that he came quite fast alongside Webber. But i guess that shows how much faster than Webber Vettel was. The problem with Vettel's move was that he didnt make it stick, and he couldnt adjust his position (ie move left!) to avoid contact while still going for the pass.

Mark simply didnt give him room. He didnt have to! if Vettel was that much faster he should have been able to make a pass stick. If he wasnt fast enough then there was no pt in Mark surrendering his possition. I guess Webber didnt realise how bad at o/t Vettel really is

[headless]

surely Webber should have used some sense and gave more room??

Surely Vettel should have used some sense and not try to place his car where there was already a car?

Oh yeah, but Webber being the wise old head, should have also been giving room.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face.